Episode 74

full
Published on:

29th Feb 2024

Survivors

This week, we're joined by Puck fashion correspondent Lauren Sherman, who gives her view on how to build a career in journalism during what's billed as an "extinction event." Hint: persistence plays a big part. Plus: Troy gets nostalgic about Vice. 

Topics:

  • 00:00 Introduction and Personal Anecdotes
  • 01:06 Welcome to People vs. Algorithms
  • 01:36 Guest Introduction: Lauren Sherman
  • 01:49 Discussion on Media Industry Changes
  • 03:41 Reflections on Podcasting
  • 16:30 Guest Arrival: Lauren Sherman
  • 18:01 Discussion on Fashion Industry
  • 30:48 Surviving in the Journalism Industry
  • 33:35 The Drive and Luck Behind Success
  • 34:16 The Journey to Becoming a Staff Writer
  • 34:37 The Role of Persistence in Journalism
  • 35:00 The Intersection of Business and Fashion
  • 35:33 Navigating High-Risk Career Paths
  • 35:52 The Decision Against Starting a Business
  • 36:35 The Importance of Being Part of Something Bigger
  • 37:01 The Value of Having an Editor
  • 37:27 The Challenges of Managing Your Own Business
  • 37:46 The Dilemma of Moving into Management
  • 38:18 The Pitfalls of Pushing Passionate People into Management
  • 38:34 The Appeal of Working at Puck
  • 39:41 The Struggles of Being a Manager
  • 40:23 The Importance of Staying Close to the Product
  • 41:25 The Reality of Working in the Media Industry
  • 53:02 The Impact of Puck on Access and Influence
  • 54:50 Advice for Aspiring Journalists
Transcript
Brian:

Anthony Bourdain said his rule was if you show up late to the first shift

Brian:

you gotta go the second time you're done You don't come back because it shows disrespect of your colleagues and it shows you don't respect

Troy:

Guys, I'm on time almost always.

Troy:

I was up late last night.

Troy:

I was tired.

Troy:

I was up early this morning and what I did is I talked into my phone and I said set alarm for 345 and the alarm didn't go off.

Troy:

The dog ate my homework.

Troy:

I'm going to get a Zyn going and everything is going to be fine.

Alex:

the last hour of my life has been spent preparing for this thing.

Alex:

While, like, Frodo Baggins was taking a little nap in the shire.

Alex:

Sure.

Brian:

Welcome to People vs.

Brian:

Algorithms, a show about patterns in media.

Brian:

technology and culture.

Brian:

I'm Brian Morrissey and each week I am joined by Troy Young and Alex Schleifer.

Brian:

Appreciate the feedback on last week's episode with dot dash Meredith's CEO Neil Vogel.

Brian:

We're gonna keep mixing in guests.

Brian:

Always good to keep it fresh and we would love your feedback.

Brian:

You can send it to me at bmorrissey at therebooting.

Brian:

com.

Brian:

You can also leave a comment.

Brian:

Comment and a rating and review on Apple or Spotify or other podcasting platforms.

Brian:

This week we are continuing these conversations by having one with Lauren Sherman.

Brian:

The fashion correspondent at Puck.

Brian:

We talk about the state of the fashion industry and how Lauren approaches her coverage of it.

Brian:

We also talk about survival.

Brian:

This has been on my mind lately amid all the layoffs and contractions in the media business.

Brian:

After all, these are structural changes that are happening and they are not over.

Brian:

The media business that emerges will most assuredly be smaller, more tightly focused, and in the long run, hopefully, more sustainably built.

Brian:

on that note, we discuss at the top what, if any, lessons can be learned from Vice's seemingly endless travails.

Brian:

Troy engages in a bit of nostalgia there, I have to warn you.

Brian:

Earlier today, I actually visited Columbia's J School to talk to a group of students who are about to enter the profession at possibly the worst time.

Brian:

talking about pie in the sky scenarios or engaging in toxic positivity.

Brian:

Besides, if they have the journalist DNA, they wouldn't buy that stuff anyway.

Brian:

So instead, I tried to strike a realistic chord.

Brian:

And I believe the survivors in this profession tend to be those who developed a specialization and rejected the idea of being a generalist.

Brian:

There's still room for generalists, but I think it is going to be, a smaller and less safe area of the industry instead, the survivors focused on specific areas and made themselves indispensable.

Brian:

And many also worked very hard to avoid the pitfalls of being commoditized in a profession that I found seemingly built to do just that.

Brian:

Lauren is one of those survivors, and she chalks it up to simple persistence, keeping going.

Brian:

I would add the willingness to take the financial angle to a glamour field like fashion.

Brian:

This is a massive global industry.

Brian:

After all, depending on the day, it is home to the world's richest person in Bernard Arnault.

Brian:

Hope you enjoyed this conversation.

Brian:

Again, send in your feedback.

Brian:

My email is bmaracy at the rebooting.

Brian:

com

Troy:

Do you want to reflect on the podcast for a bit now that we're doing therapy?

Brian:

Okay.

Troy:

I mean,

Brian:

Reflect.

Troy:

so well, I just got to wake up here.

Alex:

How does it feel to have your first hit?

Brian:

Yeah, Uppers, Downers.

Brian:

You're like, Late

Troy:

well, it's great to have Neil on, if that's what you mean.

Troy:

That was a hit.

Troy:

I liked the last podcast we did, but I was thinking about the podcast.

Troy:

listened to it and it, whatever.

Troy:

Neil called it sort of, I don't know, media smartless or something, which is guess a good and a bad thing.

Troy:

It means kind of that it's friends that sometimes get on each other's cases, which is what's happening right now.

Alex:

Well, the only difference is that I don't know who the guests are that you bring on.

Alex:

So that's a, that's

Alex:

a little bit of a,

Troy:

no, we have a third guy who's a bit of a monkey.

Troy:

He's kind of unqualified.

Troy:

And, But I'm going to reflect on that for a second, Alex, because I mean, I think that can be valuable.

Troy:

Admittedly.

Troy:

I think when you're way behind on the thread, and you're like, what?

Troy:

Who was that?

Troy:

sometimes it's frustrating, but

Troy:

I'm patient

Alex:

people's first names and acronyms.

Alex:

I mean, people should see this thread, which is like just a bunch of

Alex:

acronyms and first names.

Alex:

it's like I've walked into one of Brian's webinars.

Brian:

Thank you.

Brian:

So it must have been

Brian:

a delightful

Troy:

So I stopped listening to smart lists.

Troy:

When, when it felt massively sycophantic, like I couldn't stand how a bunch of celebrities were telling other celebrities how great they all were remember when we had lunch, blah, blah, blah, it was so great to see you at the Four Seasons in Beverly Hills.

Troy:

So that's, I don't think that's what this is.

Troy:

And, we don't need to talk a lot about what, this is, but I did learn something I was thinking about how to make the podcast better and what other podcasts I like.

Troy:

Ben Thompson's a weirdo I've decided, but he delivers the goods in a tight little package.

Troy:

And I listened to his podcast.

Troy:

And if I have huge amounts of time, Lix Fridman is nice to listen to because he lets his guests talk.

Troy:

He summarizes well, he asks good questions, but it's often too long as we all know.

Troy:

Scott and Karius, Karius, Scott and Kara are, are really sanctimonious beyond measure, right?

Troy:

And there's some good takes on it.

Troy:

And if we ever have a therapist on the show, I'm going to literally kill myself.

Troy:

I think that.

Troy:

Puck, especially Puck, the podcast powers of B and Media Monday is really good.

Troy:

I like it a lot.

Troy:

And John has an encyclopedic media knowledge and Peter holds it

Brian:

Yeah, but he didn't know what Jonah, he didn't know what Jonah wrote on the sneaker.

Brian:

I texted him that it was sweatshopped.

Troy:

well, that's why he likes your podcast because he gets that from you.

Brian:

Concierge

Brian:

service

Troy:

like this other podcast, Tetragrammaton, Rick Rubin's Zen vibes, his insights, good questions.

Troy:

Doesn't have to be the whole show.

Alex:

Is that what you want to be?

Alex:

You want to be media's Rick Rubin?

Troy:

that's not what I was getting at.

Troy:

you know, I do also like produce shows like on the media or plain English or whatever with the PBS vibe, but you know, if we had a producer, maybe it would be like that.

Troy:

But anyway, I think what makes it work first is we're centered on a community and that community is digital media.

Troy:

And that's why the Neil one, I mean that one way, like it or not, that's the community that I'm from.

Troy:

That's the community that kind of Brian's from.

Troy:

And you can, then you can go introduced and invite new communities.

Troy:

But the thing has to be first and foremost centered on a community.

Troy:

I think that's important for a podcast that you're serving a community.

Alex:

Yeah, that's why I said we should rename it This Week in SEO.

Alex:

I thought that was a good name.

Alex:

It did.

Troy:

I, I think that we can veer over into sort of, vision pro world or, gaming

Troy:

world or

Brian:

it is?

Brian:

It's, it, it's keeping that vertical focus, but having a broader view.

Brian:

Because a lot of times when you're in a vertical focus, there's a lot of like myopic thinking.

Brian:

And so the essential service that Alex provides is to.

Brian:

Remind everyone how small this industry is and that it needs to get its collective head out of its ass.

Troy:

Thanks for saying that.

Troy:

Cause that's what I was going to, I think it's important to have Alex on the show even if he has a vibes of middle world, sometimes

Brian:

What does that mean?

Troy:

haggar vibes.

Alex:

I'm just gonna

Brian:

Why do you put up with this shit?

Brian:

I don't put up with it.

Brian:

That's the thing.

Brian:

I have less tolerance

Alex:

I know it comes from a place of love and deep insecurity, so I just live

Brian:

Okay, well, I know, I know that and I still have less.

Troy:

I think you gotta do the work, Alex.

Troy:

You gotta do the

Brian:

I can't do the

Alex:

I did the fucking work

Alex:

today.

Alex:

I was

Brian:

How could you show up a half

Brian:

hour late and say you got to do the work?

Alex:

I have three pages of fucking research on the topics you mentioned.

Alex:

I listened to podcasts about our guest today to learn about her.

Alex:

I set up all the audio so we could listen to your stupid song.

Brian:

And you took a four hour

Alex:

yeah, then you fell asleep in some sort of hobbit hole somewhere.

Brian:

And your yurt.

Brian:

I got a

Brian:

note asking why you were doing the podcast outside because of your last outfit.

Brian:

Because we did a little video.

Brian:

Why was Troy outside?

Troy:

I also had a couple other items on my list.

Troy:

I know that you had brought up vice and I had some strong points of view on that, Brian.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

is there a lesson to be learned from, Vice's, slow motion demise?

Troy:

well, I don't know if you heard John talk about it, what he described as like a, unsentimental take.

Troy:

But.

Troy:

My, my memories of Vice, many of them are very fond, actually.

Troy:

So where I started in journal, well, in media was across the street from where Vice started in Montreal.

Troy:

And they were a sort of quasi government funded hipster magazine that no one could really figure out because it wasn't clear where it was distributed or how they were getting money.

Troy:

Like it was always a hustle.

Troy:

And that's what was great about Vice.

Troy:

cause it represented a kind of, I dunno, modern rebellion of, fuck ups that we're going to make something.

Troy:

if you just stop the Schudenfreud for a sec, I think there's a lot of really great things inside of Vice.

Troy:

And, and I'll admit that I, I like Shane Smith a lot and I think he's the king.

Troy:

I say that kind of provocatively or with humor, but I like Shane.

Troy:

But like, I have memories of like going to their new front, I can't remember where it was, on the west side in Manhattan.

Troy:

And the Vice area was totally packed.

Troy:

Shane was laying on the sh Like on the stage reliving his punk rock past and, Everybody was there and everybody was like, Oh my God, I want to be part of this.

Troy:

And I remember, Shane holding court in Cannes and his rented mansion.

Troy:

I can remember their articles that for sure tested the limits of good taste.

Troy:

I think advice, I think.

Troy:

Actually, some really incredible documentary kind of storytelling that had way more ambition and delivered on it than any of the upstarts or newcomers in digital media.

Troy:

I remember like when they went to North Korea with Dennis Rodman.

Troy:

And, a couple of Harlem Globetrotters, and they did this documentary with playing basketball with Kim Jong un, like they did crazy stuff.

Troy:

And you know what?

Troy:

By the way, they did all the things that people in digital media kind of aspired to do.

Troy:

But they did it first, right?

Troy:

Like, they told stories with video.

Troy:

I remember Hearst execs coming in and talking about how vice was so incredible that they gave cameras to the kids, that they broke conventions of media making, that they were like, telling stories that other people weren't telling, they mixed the kind of content that they basically they wanted to cover.

Troy:

They covered sex, they colored politics, they covered drugs, they colored, as well as news and entertainment and social issues.

Troy:

but they got the production deals before anyone else, which HBO with, I don't know who else they got deals with.

Troy:

They got their own television station when everybody was trying to do branded content.

Troy:

Remember vice bought, what was they bought an agency?

Troy:

I think it was called carrot.

Troy:

But then vice was doing

Troy:

like, I were Yeah, they were doing deals and what a great name virtue, they, they were doing deals with the likes of Unilever and others for, millions and millions of dollars.

Troy:

People were so envious about how big the deals they were doing,

Brian:

I can't remember.

Brian:

Let me just jump in for a second.

Brian:

I remember one time at a Digiday event.

Brian:

This is like a week.

Brian:

when this is early on, probably like 2012, 13.

Brian:

And I think it was whatever Mondelez was called before it was Mondelez craft or something.

Brian:

They, they were talking about some amazing campaign they did.

Brian:

And they were talking, they were like, and thanks to our agencies and vice was the, was, was

Troy:

right?

Troy:

Didn't they do a 10 million deal with Intel?

Troy:

Do you remember they did that huge and motherboard I

Brian:

Oh, yeah.

Brian:

Oh my God, the Bank of America deal for the finance stuff.

Brian:

I mean, look, he was chain.

Brian:

I'm again, this is a wig.

Brian:

He's clearly a master salesperson, a 500 bottle of, of wine in, in the South of France.

Brian:

Okay, whatever.

Brian:

I don't know.

Brian:

I don't run in these circles.

Brian:

it was enough to like, sell the Bank of America CMO on a 10 million project that was viewed by, I don't know, 15, 000

Brian:

people.

Troy:

way, along the way, they won Emmys.

Troy:

They won a Pulitzer.

Alex:

was it for the guy that went to the Westminster dog show on acid?

Alex:

Because that's the

Troy:

that's a classic actually.

Troy:

That's

Brian:

I mean, look, it was, in some ways, like I look at it, I'm like, well, it's a victimless crime.

Brian:

I mean, they took a lot of money from VCs and Rupert Murdoch and George Soros and various other people and incinerated it and made some, interesting stuff.

Brian:

They did a lot of crass stuff.

Brian:

They created what seems like a horrific corporate culture.

Brian:

they did a ton of self dealing.

Brian:

the only person who made money off of this seemingly was the executives for proving that they could incinerate a bunch of money.

Brian:

I don't know.

Troy:

That's totally punk rock, huh?

Troy:

You don't like that?

Troy:

I thought you'd like that.

Brian:

Well, I think you probably have a little bit more affinity for the boss class since we all have roles to

Troy:

There's no doubt I have affinity for the Boscos.

Troy:

But listen, they took a magazine model, they built a community around it, they blew it into this multimedia brand,

Brian:

They bamboozled all of the millennials to work for Dirt Cheap because they got to be part of like, keg parties and whatnot.

Brian:

That was a good

Troy:

Yeah, it was like performance art, man.

Troy:

It was amazing.

Troy:

And, but I don't think that the media was essential to anyone.

Troy:

and, and it was sort of like MTV without a place on the dial.

Troy:

Right?

Troy:

So they got the TV station, but by the time they got the TV station, TV was over.

Troy:

they were programming to, an elderly audience.

Troy:

It

Troy:

wasn't gonna work.

Alex:

what are we, talking about here?

Alex:

Are they shutting down or what's happening?

Brian:

Well.

Troy:

they're gonna just trim down to be like a production company

Troy:

. Alex: They had 18 million subscribers on YouTube.

Troy:

That's like a distribution platform that's not a production company.

Troy:

Well, they'll keep that, I'm

Brian:

Yeah, but I mean, that's like, so they're going to distribute on social channels and then they're going to distribute through other people that actually own distribution.

Troy:

You know what?

Troy:

they're

Troy:

they're as close, Alex.

Troy:

No

Troy:

questions.

Troy:

Sorry.

Troy:

No

Alex:

I have a question for you guys.

Alex:

do you think, you know how.

Alex:

When you look at Netflix or even publishers and video games, they often don't create the content.

Alex:

They're just, redistributing content other people make.

Alex:

Are we going to see more news companies shrink down and distribute it to the platforms and the AI companies and the

Brian:

Yeah,

Brian:

I mean, that's a path.

Brian:

The studio model is a path for sure.

Brian:

The SEO glue factory is

Brian:

a path.

Alex:

Why hasn't it taken over news

Troy:

but before we get into the, I want to finish my eulogy,

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

go ahead.

Troy:

Okay.

Brian:

finished.

Alex:

you dream it up during your nap?

Alex:

Cause you seem,

Brian:

No, he looks like

Troy:

Listen,

Brian:

he has a teleprompter.

Troy:

Alex.

Troy:

It was like a moment in music or a trend in club land.

Troy:

It's like a great.

Troy:

Underground club that was wonderful for a while.

Troy:

And everybody says, remember when?

Troy:

Remember that vibe?

Troy:

Remember that thing was like in the old days, Rolling Stone could be a generational music brand or sort of not a music band, a generation media brand, and it lasted because it was different then and they mixed all the things, music, culture news, but they had the delivery mechanism of a stable magazine business.

Troy:

And vice never really had that stability.

Troy:

Nobody in digital media had it.

Troy:

So, and, and today when everybody can create, I don't even know if we need a brand like that.

Troy:

It's different,

Brian:

I think, but the, my problem with, I guess it's not a problem.

Brian:

I just feel like Vice is the avatar of this era of hacks.

Brian:

they used to do this thing called, the traffic assignment scheme, which is nuts.

Brian:

Like basically they would roll up Bored Panda and

Brian:

all

Brian:

these nonsense viral

Brian:

sites.

Troy:

And that's just like doing that or Adderall.

Brian:

There you

Lauren:

I

Troy:

Look who's here.

Troy:

Lauren.

Troy:

What's up?

Troy:

They just finished actually ripping me a new one because Lauren and I fell asleep and I was late for the podcast.

Lauren:

So what, what happened that was bad?

Troy:

Well, Alex came to the pod dressed as Peter Jackson and I got yelled at for wearing this vest.

Brian:

Now you

Brian:

showed up a half hour late.

Lauren:

what does dress like Peter Jackson mean?

Alex:

it's just that I have a beard, I called him a hobbit.

Alex:

So he got offended.

Alex:

the issue really is that he fell asleep and came in 40 minutes late, after lecturing everyone.

Alex:

So this is what we've been dealing with

Troy:

You know what the most important thing for a good podcast, Is Lauren?

Lauren:

Oh, please tell me, Troy.

Troy:

Preparation.

Lauren:

Preparation.

Lauren:

You took a nap in the afternoon?

Troy:

Uh,

Troy:

yeah, I often do.

Brian:

that's what I said.

Troy:

At least tired.

Alex:

a Tuesday.

Brian:

On a Tuesday.

Brian:

that makes you question your lifestyle choices, I think.

Lauren:

I don't like naps.

Lauren:

I'm not into

Brian:

Good.

Brian:

This is the survival guide to journalism.

Brian:

You,

Brian:

we got no time for

Alex:

first rule of

Alex:

survival, stop taking naps

Alex:

in the middle of

Troy:

Alex, I'd like you to meet Lauren.

Troy:

she's a cool egg.

Troy:

This is Alex, our old friend Alex.

Alex:

Hi Lauren.

Lauren:

It's nice to meet you, Alex.

Lauren:

Am I the first woman you guys have had on?

Brian:

Yeah, I think so.

Brian:

I love

Troy:

Why do, why do you think we're

Lauren:

Oh my god.

Lauren:

I love to be the diversity card.

Troy:

not why we picked you.

Brian:

Not at all.

Brian:

should we get started?

Troy:

yeah, let's go.

Troy:

Are you

Troy:

ready?

Troy:

Lauren,

Brian:

going.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Brian:

so Lauren, where, where are you in Europe?

Brian:

I assume you're there for the shows.

Brian:

What is it, Paris now?

Lauren:

Yeah, I'm in Paris.

Lauren:

I got here on Sunday night.

Brian:

So do you go to all of these fashion shows, these fashion weeks?

Brian:

There's, there's one every week, it seems like.

Lauren:

I go to New York, Milan, and Paris, and occasionally go for men's or for couture or something like that, but twice a year I do.

Lauren:

I didn't do Milan when I worked at Business and Fashion, but

Lauren:

I'm doing

Lauren:

it

Troy:

do you ever do the fashion week in Regina, Saskatchewan?

Troy:

It's a really good one.

Lauren:

Oh really?

Lauren:

That's interesting.

Lauren:

Do they have the vests that you have on, Troy?

Lauren:

Is that where you got

Brian:

Chewbacca vibes.

Alex:

It can't be anywhere else.

Alex:

I would say it looks like a uniform.

Alex:

I had a question about those events.

Alex:

So we, we hear about them and they seem to do pretty big news cycles, in the fashion industry, whenever it is one of these weeks, is it also consumer event?

Alex:

Do they all follow a similar format?

Lauren:

It's not consumer at the smaller, secondary and tertiary fashion weeks.

Lauren:

They'll sell tickets.

Lauren:

It's not technically a consumer event, but it's It used to be for the trade, now it's for marketing.

Lauren:

So, it's a consumer event in that consumers can watch them online, and like, some shows, Diesel and Milan, they always do kind of bring in students, stuff like that, but it's mostly the people who are there are editors, influencers.

Lauren:

Sometimes they bring in like top consumers that are spending a hundred grand a year or more, but it's not like you buy, can buy tickets, you get invited.

Lauren:

And if you're a top consumer and you get to go, they fly you out there and they spend, they'll spend 20 grand, 25 grand to like put you up and all of that stuff, or, or 10, 15 grand, that sort of thing, thinking that you'll spend at least a hundred.

Lauren:

So

Lauren:

it's worth it for them.

Troy:

it's

Troy:

like, Vegas.

Troy:

Yeah.

Alex:

I had another question on that.

Alex:

I was leading to another question, which is, it seems that fashion Has this pretty regular drumbeat of these events, which seem to be, I think, great when you're, in media and it feels like most industries would love to have the amount of regular events that happen in fashion.

Alex:

Right.

Alex:

If, if you look at automotive, there, there are a handful, tech, you know, Apple is one of them or CES or things like that.

Alex:

Do you think it's an advantage to have, kind of this much content essentially that gets created every, every few weeks?

Lauren:

Sure, I mean, these brands are mass brands that, sell billions upon billions of dollars worth of product, but the products cost A lot of money.

Lauren:

So it's not like a car where you're, it's like 35 or 40 grand.

Lauren:

Most of the products that people are buying are what, between 70 and 3, 000 or something like that.

Lauren:

So you have to sell more of them to get the volume and you just need the feed.

Lauren:

Essentially like a lot of high net worth consumers buy luxury goods, as if they were buying Zara or something.

Lauren:

So they need people to.

Lauren:

Be buying a new luxury good every single week in order to drive the volume that they need.

Lauren:

So they do need to have a lot of events to get people interested.

Lauren:

It doesn't always work and you either have to have a ton of money or, or a ton of creativity for it to, to stick or to make a dent, but I guess it works.

Lauren:

I don't think it's value as valuable to the trade as it used to be.

Lauren:

it's valuable to the media.

Lauren:

It's not valuable to buyers like it

Alex:

Right.

Alex:

that was my question, which is it's a benefit if you're in the media to have these events to, to cover that, because I can see, there are even spikes on, text sites, just when Apple has that, bi yearly event and, and I know people in the.

Alex:

Tech media wish there were just more events, you know, events like E3 shut down and there's not that many.

Alex:

so it does sound like it, it always makes for interesting reading, even if you're not a consumer,

Troy:

Lauren, Lauren,

Troy:

Alex was doing his best to connect the gaming world to fashion.

Troy:

And that's admirable.

Troy:

But, I want to back up to get thematic alignment if you don't mind.

Troy:

Can I do that with you?

Troy:

So.

Troy:

Brian has been accused on the podcast of being overly negative and cynical, and at a very difficult time in, in media, I think we're marked this period marks the end certainly of an era,

Troy:

we're trying to put that era in perspective and also look for paths forward.

Troy:

Last week, we had our friend Neil on from Neil Vogel from dot dash Meredith, who did, I thought, a really good job of presenting the bull case for his company, and for any company like his in the industry.

Troy:

And then as I was thinking about that, and I don't know, talking to someone, I thought it would be good to have the perspective of people that are doing amazingly well in the industry that are survivors.

Troy:

And I thought of you, well, it wasn't long ago where I met you in LA and did you and Dan meet at Forbes?

Troy:

Is that right?

Lauren:

we met.

Lauren:

At the end of 2005.

Troy:

Right.

Troy:

So you guys are like,

Lauren:

Forbes.

Lauren:

com, not Forbes.

Lauren:

It was Forbes.

Lauren:

com.

Troy:

com, yeah, it's where

Lauren:

It eventually was one thing.

Lauren:

It was Span Spanny,

Brian:

Troy, you're doing the, the first person thing.

Brian:

This is, this is Dan Frommer, correct?

Troy:

Dan Fromer.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

I'm sorry.

Troy:

Your husband, Dan Fromer.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

Yeah.

Lauren:

I'm sure every person who listens to this podcast knows who Dan Fromer is,

Alex:

actually Dan from is the first person that these guys have mentioned that I know well, so this is

Troy:

you know, Dan.

Troy:

So anyway, I thought of you guys as like the OG digital content kids.

Troy:

And you guys both grew up and moved to LA and, got a house and had a baby and all that.

Troy:

And now, you seem to be doing really well with this gig at POC.

Troy:

And you're a survivor.

Troy:

And, I thought maybe you could talk about, we could talk about that.

Troy:

Meanwhile, Brian has also been doing his, his work

Troy:

inside of journalism schools,

Lauren:

I mean, Brian, you're not really out of the game.

Lauren:

You have a newsletter.

Lauren:

I don't, I don't, I don't consider that being out of the game.

Lauren:

That's the, that's

Lauren:

what it is now.

Troy:

He's very much in the

Alex:

He was just selling webinars 20 minutes ago.

Alex:

He's he's the game.

Lauren:

Someone asked me the other day, oh, another newsletter writer, a much, a much younger newsletter writer said, it's so cool that you and your husband both have newsletters.

Lauren:

And I was like, this is just journalism.

Lauren:

We used to both blog.

Lauren:

We used to both write, pageview sweatshop stories at Forbes.

Lauren:

com.

Lauren:

It's just, you do

Lauren:

what is

Troy:

I have a newsletter too, Lauren.

Lauren:

I know

Lauren:

I

Lauren:

I read at Troy.

Brian:

when

Brian:

when he publishes it.

Alex:

I was listening to an interview with you just, preparing for this.

Alex:

And I heard that you used to do HTML and build the websites and the content.

Alex:

do you

Alex:

miss that?

Alex:

Having that we're going back to newsletters and kind of the

Alex:

web.

Alex:

it's

Alex:

it's entirely

Lauren:

I, I went to like computer camp in high school where I learned how to hard code HTML, but it wasn't like it wasn't I don't know how to do Ruby on Rails or any of that stuff.

Lauren:

I never learned anything more than HTML.

Alex:

We're talking markup here, But that might give you more of

Alex:

an affinity for

Lauren:

I loved going into the code and cleaning it up and making sure everything looked nice and neat in WordPress,

Alex:

Do you miss that?

Alex:

Those days of the internet being exciting and craft led, where we used to make, spend time and attention formatting our pages?

Alex:

I do.

Alex:

That's why I'm asking.

Alex:

web is

Alex:

dying.

Alex:

We're just

Alex:

sending newsletters out

Brian:

I, yeah,

Brian:

I miss doing a href equal.

Alex:

Yeah.

Lauren:

I'm

Lauren:

not a person who looks back at things.

Brian:

yeah, but also all the publishing technology was like so handcrafted and duct taped together that editors had to go into the CMS and go into the actual code and just copy and paste a tremendous amount.

Brian:

It wasn't very rewarding, at least in my experience.

Troy:

Lauren, what do you do now?

Lauren:

I'm a columnist or a author at Puck.

Lauren:

I write a column, a newsletter called Line Sheet about the fashion industry and a little bit about the beauty industry as well.

Lauren:

And

Troy:

And

Troy:

how do you describe

Troy:

Puck to like

Lauren:

I do not, I do not use our CMS.

Lauren:

I

Troy:

how do you follow a story?

Lauren:

I file it in Google docs.

Lauren:

It's It'ss

Alex:

Oh, wow.

Alex:

that great.

Brian:

like a concierge service.

Brian:

I like that.

Lauren:

really

Lauren:

fancy.

Troy:

do you

Troy:

describe Puck to your parents or to older people like me?

Lauren:

I usually say it's like a business magazine online.

Lauren:

And that I'm a columnist.

Lauren:

I'm not like I write a newsletter, a private, or we call it private email.

Lauren:

I don't, I don't say that.

Lauren:

I say I'm a columnist.

Lauren:

I write the fashion column.

Lauren:

It's a business magazine online.

Lauren:

It's like old school magazine writing, but.

Lauren:

Done in a modern delivered in a modern way.

Troy:

how did you get to Puck?

Troy:

Where were you prior to Puck?

Troy:

It's

Lauren:

I was the chief correspondent at business of fashion The lead writer first full time seven years and I was writing for them for about ten and before that I Was a freelance writer for a long time and before that I worked at a blog called fashionista Which is owned by breaking media and then prior to that.

Lauren:

I was a reporter at Forbes for four years I also worked at Condé for a year in there, but we don't need to talk about that.

Brian:

How do you describe your beat?

Lauren:

I cover the fashion industry.

Lauren:

I, like to say from Target to Hermes, but I, I'm really interested in brands and why people shop and what makes them shop, I love fashion and interested in that industry and what drives it and.

Lauren:

Why?

Lauren:

Our entire GDP is based on consumption, so it's, it fuels the economy, it, it's a global cultural touch point, it's, it is so much, and everybody has to wear clothes whether they want to or not, so yeah, it's interesting, it's been a

Lauren:

fun

Lauren:

a fun ride.

Alex:

I've been hearing, from people that they feel like cultures accelerated and fashions accelerated where you blink and, you, you watch a video on YouTube and it looks like fashions moved.

Alex:

Forward and it used to move slower.

Alex:

Is that something you're noticing?

Alex:

Does does kind of the internet speed affect fashion speed?

Lauren:

it's sped up the trend cycle, but I also think it's flattened the trend cycle.

Lauren:

So you can go on Instagram, and I write about this a lot, like I, on my Instagram account for, it's not happening as much anymore and I'm wondering why, but I was getting fed images of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy.

Lauren:

Constantly.

Lauren:

It's just, I don't follow any of those accounts, but I, I'm sure I like, would like them or look at them.

Lauren:

And I just constantly was getting fed images of her.

Lauren:

And if you were 18 years old and seeing that, those images, the way people dress hasn't really changed since like 1990, or maybe even 1985.

Lauren:

It's fairly similar.

Lauren:

The wardrobe, it's not like from the 70s the 90s.

Lauren:

It's pretty standard.

Lauren:

And so you could see images of her and an 18 year old doesn't register that that's from the past.

Lauren:

And so in some ways Yes, the trend cycle is really, really fast, but in other ways, there isn't really a trend cycle.

Lauren:

people just shop vintage, they shop the, the era that they like, or the style that they like.

Lauren:

And so, I think it's more about the flattening of, of history and, and not really understanding.

Lauren:

Before, if you wanted to look at that stuff, you'd have to look and books and, and research or, or a magazine once a month might have an old picture in it.

Lauren:

But now that stuff is just so accessible that it feels like it's in the present.

Lauren:

And so, The way people dress is way less connected to everybody's in skinny jeans or everybody's in bell bottoms or whatever, which is probably the easiest way to follow a trend over the last 40 years.

Lauren:

Now, people wear whatever jeans they want to wear and they're more following what they like aesthetically online.

Lauren:

So, it, yes it has sped up, but it's also doesn't matter as much as it used to.

Troy:

Hey, Lauren.

Troy:

I think that you, maybe I characterize it as making or have one of the plum jobs in the industry.

Troy:

you know, you remember sort of looking up to all those people that had those great jobs in the, heydays of the magazine business.

Troy:

I say your job is great because I think that you have.

Troy:

lots of influence and you have lots of freedom.

Troy:

and that's what makes, the product kind of fun to read.

Troy:

And it's, really cool to see that you occupy that role.

Troy:

Now, do you sort of feel like, how did you get to do this?

Troy:

why did you survive when it's so challenging for so many others right now?

Lauren:

Yeah, I've been thinking about that for the last couple of days.

Lauren:

One thing is this job didn't exist when I first started.

Lauren:

There was not even people covering fashion.

Lauren:

When I worked at Forbes, they barely wanted me to do it.

Lauren:

They wanted me to write about other stuff and, Maybe once every six months.

Lauren:

They were not interested in me writing about it full time and I had to really push for it.

Lauren:

So, that's one thing, there weren't people at general interest publications covering this stuff as much because the industry was far smaller and far less consolidated.

Lauren:

As the industry consolidated and became, you know, Bernardo knows the richest man in the world.

Lauren:

I don't know if today, but The last six months he's been fighting with Elon Musk for that title.

Lauren:

That didn't exist when I started, 15, 20 years ago.

Lauren:

So that's one thing, that this job was made.

Lauren:

And there are a lot more options at the tippy top now than there were maybe 15 years ago.

Lauren:

When I started it was Terry Egans of the Wall Street Journal was the only fashion reporter who covered the business.

Lauren:

At a big publication.

Lauren:

So that's one thing.

Lauren:

But I also think, I have a combination of I have to work, which a lot of people who are in publishing, they have to work, but they don't really have to work like they have some sort of backup.

Lauren:

I had no backup.

Lauren:

So I have to work.

Lauren:

And then I also really only like to do things the way I like to do them.

Lauren:

I maybe took one job, the Condé Nast job, that wasn't right for me because I wanted more money and I wanted to like, work there and see what it was like, but generally, I've been like, very pushy about, I only want to do things that I want to do, and I got more confident with my money.

Lauren:

as the years went on and especially when I was freelancing and I realized, Oh, I can, I made good money when I was a freelancer.

Lauren:

I'm just like an insane hustler and also work a lot.

Lauren:

I don't get writer's block.

Lauren:

I can, I could write five news, newsletters a week.

Lauren:

I mean, it would be crazy, but I could do it.

Lauren:

Like it's,

Troy:

Brian

Lauren:

enough in me.

Lauren:

So yeah, I'd say that it's that combination of Not having a backup and then also I want to do things the way I want to do them and just keep that's like created this extreme drive that has benefited me and I'm also very lucky person like I've had a very, a very nice life.

Lauren:

So that that's it too.

Lauren:

But it is hard for me to empathize.

Lauren:

with people who haven't been able to stick around or feel like they've gotten short under the stick in journalism.

Lauren:

I know a lot of people have, but I do think a part of it is also just waiting it out and keeping going.

Lauren:

And I just, I, when I moved to New York, I was like, I want to get a job as a staff writer.

Lauren:

And if I don't, by the time I'm 27, I'll do something else, but I got one.

Lauren:

And so I kept doing it.

Lauren:

And I've been thinking about it for two days and that's really all I can come up with is that I'm just.

Lauren:

I don't know if stubborn is the right word, but just very, I just push a lot.

Lauren:

I push myself.

Lauren:

I push everybody a lot.

Lauren:

So I don't know if that's a lesson for how to fix the industry though.

Brian:

I don't know if it's a lesson, but I think there's lessons to be drawn from it, right?

Brian:

And I think also, you've out competed a lot of people in A very competitive space.

Brian:

If you think about particularly fashion journalism, and I know what you do is different.

Brian:

I think that's that's one of the staying powers.

Brian:

And that's one of the secrets to survival is that you put yourself at the intersection of business and fashion.

Brian:

A lot of fashion coverage historically treated as a serious business that it is.

Brian:

it's a big industry, but, there's a lot of people who are drawn to fashion Not for the business reasons.

Lauren:

For sure.

Lauren:

And I think that was really lucky that I randomly got a job at Forbes.

Lauren:

com.

Lauren:

It's not like I wanted to work there,

Troy:

Do you and Dan ever look at each other across the dinner table after he's made a beautiful dinner?

Troy:

and say, we're, both kind of moving down these very high risk, career paths.

Troy:

is this a terrible idea?

Troy:

how do you know?

Lauren:

no, I don't know.

Lauren:

Mine is not risky.

Lauren:

I'll be fine.

Lauren:

We just don't, we're not, we don't think like that.

Lauren:

I think some of the stuff Dan has done has been riskier than me.

Lauren:

I mean, he's, I'm not going to start my own business.

Lauren:

have no interest in that.

Brian:

Did you consider that with all the sub stack craze and

Lauren:

no, I

Brian:

you know,

Lauren:

the Substack thing.

Lauren:

It's not

Lauren:

for

Lauren:

me.

Brian:

insanely

Lauren:

aesthetic of the sub stack,

Brian:

Okay, but look.

Lauren:

so that's

Lauren:

part, part of it.

Lauren:

I mean, Dan, he's,

Brian:

a beautiful newsletter.

Lauren:

yeah, he would.

Lauren:

And he, he coded his own beautiful newsletter, but I don't know.

Lauren:

I just am

Troy:

if if

Lauren:

like,

Troy:

to.

Lauren:

I liked freelancing and I would do that again if I had to.

Lauren:

And honestly, I was really,

Troy:

just

Lauren:

the last year of BOF, I was like, I'm ready to go.

Lauren:

It just felt like it was time and I was.

Lauren:

Thinking on, I'll just end up going freelance, but I like being a part of something bigger and I also, with BOF and Puck, I really admired both of those places and wanted, Troy, I mentioned Puck to you a year before I started.

Lauren:

You asked me once, what newsletters do you like, and I was like, the only thing that I think is really interesting from

Troy:

of

Lauren:

bigger thing is Puck.

Lauren:

I like being part of something bigger.

Lauren:

Also,

Lauren:

I

Lauren:

like having an

Lauren:

editor.

Lauren:

my editors are great.

Lauren:

That, that has been the best thing about working there is that I have these amazing editors

Lauren:

who

Lauren:

make me sound better and

Troy:

like

Lauren:

don't mess with the good stuff, which is, which is really rare.

Lauren:

So that's part of it.

Lauren:

But I also just don't like the substack aesthetic for me and I could have done it on my own, but that's a, it's a pain in the butt.

Lauren:

I mean, it's, that's having your own business and managing.

Lauren:

If you want to have advertising, Dan has advertising.

Lauren:

He has partners.

Lauren:

He does sponsor content.

Lauren:

he consults, he has all these different things he does.

Lauren:

And it's great for him.

Lauren:

It's the best job he's ever had, but

Troy:

even if

Troy:

you, um, moved into management, I

Alex:

Yeah, I heard.

Alex:

I heard you talk about the fact that you wanted to focus on being a writer and which is also why you never went into things like.

Alex:

Management, which is what, a career path that a lot of media companies push writers into.

Alex:

I totally get that.

Alex:

I also get why you think that a Substack is not aesthetically

Brian:

Wait, can I just jump in with, is that any different with designers?

Brian:

Don't get, don't designers get pushed into being design directors and then creative

Alex:

Yeah, I

Brian:

soon they're having meetings, not,

Alex:

I mean, which is why that resonated with me because it's the same thing.

Alex:

We, we keep pushing anyone that has a passion and experience for something into becoming a manager.

Alex:

and so you kind of create an environment that just like stacked with managers and with people that have a ton of experience, hating their jobs.

Alex:

It happens in, in definitely happens in design.

Alex:

and sometimes I think you need to create environments where people can just do the job, which is why I find Puck fascinating, right?

Alex:

It doesn't seem to have, support structure, not a lot of layering, and then people who are at the top of their game just making stuff.

Alex:

and I like that, I like that model a lot.

Lauren:

Yeah, it's really great.

Lauren:

And I was pushed into management several times, but you can't avoid it altogether.

Lauren:

I moved into management for like, I think, a month, and I told him, Ron, I can't do this, and then I ended up staying in it for a little bit longer, but I I helped the other reporters a lot, and that's the one thing, as you get more senior, you do have to just like help the other people, even if You are not managing them day to day.

Lauren:

but yeah, I mean, when I took that job at Condé Nast, that was a management job.

Lauren:

And I thought, you know, this is what I have to do to make decent money and stay in this industry.

Lauren:

And I just realized.

Lauren:

Very quickly that it wasn't right for me.

Lauren:

And I like, I like being alone a lot.

Lauren:

I like writing and reporting and that's the biggest thing.

Lauren:

And I just can't like the whole thing you have to do as a manager where people come to you and complain all the time about the other people they work with.

Lauren:

I can't handle

Lauren:

that because it's just not my

Alex:

this flies in the face a little bit to what you've been pitching, Brian, which is,

Brian:

What middle management?

Alex:

No, well, writers have to become more than writers.

Alex:

They have to become, you know, run their own business,

Brian:

No, I don't agree with that.

Alex:

and webinars and

Brian:

No, there's different paths.

Brian:

I mean, I remember actually when I started, doing the rebooting, I talked with Dan, and, I remember him telling me, he's like, it's not for everyone.

Brian:

You gotta be, you gotta be willing to do, do it all.

Brian:

It's just a different path, and there's different trade offs.

Brian:

But I think, it's interesting about this profession, but beyond that is the survival path is actually better to be as close as you can to the making of whatever the product is or the selling of the product, not where you've been pushed, which is the hilarious part of capitalism is they push you in a direction and then they pull the rug out from under you.

Brian:

Look at all the middle managers getting left by the wayside at all of these companies.

Brian:

You're the first to

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Lauren:

I would agree with that.

Lauren:

I think that if you know how to do something, then.

Lauren:

You are always able to make money.

Lauren:

Like, I can always make money writing an article for someone.

Lauren:

I mean, I know you all probably think it's all gonna go to AI or whatever, but like, I can always make money writing something,

Brian:

I

Brian:

don't

Troy:

that's what we all

Brian:

I hope it

Troy:

Alex said

Alex:

Hey, Hey, Hey.

Alex:

I never said that.

Alex:

I think that there's a, there's like a lot of the stuff in the middle or the low end specifically that gets replaced, but,

Alex:

but,

Troy:

it his way, Lauren, your newsletter would be three bullets.

Troy:

But But listen, I'm wondering, Lauren, if you got the call from, say, a place you admire.

Troy:

and let's say that it was kind of traditional media.

Troy:

let's say Anna called you, Anna Wintour called you and said, I want you to be the U.

Troy:

S.

Troy:

Vogue editor.

Troy:

Uh,

Lauren:

work there.

Troy:

you, wouldn't do it?

Lauren:

No, I'm not interested.

Lauren:

I was never interested in working at Vogue.

Lauren:

I'm very interested in Anna

Lauren:

and writing about

Troy:

it was at, maybe it was Vanity Fair instead.

Lauren:

Right now, would I do that?

Lauren:

Never.

Lauren:

Would I have done that 10 years ago?

Lauren:

Yeah, of course, I would have been interested in it.

Lauren:

But now, just so much crap at those places.

Lauren:

It's so frustrating.

Lauren:

It's interesting, I've had, the two interview, like the two interview processes I went through at BOF before this that were, like, things that I would have considered were at two newspapers.

Lauren:

You can guess which ones.

Lauren:

And one of them,

Troy:

The Regina Leader Post and, no, Wall Street Journal and something else, yes, New

Troy:

York Times.

Lauren:

The one of them, I didn't want the job at all, but I wanted to meet the editor because I thought he was interesting.

Lauren:

and I was like, I don't want this job, but I just wanted to meet you.

Lauren:

And the amount of money that this big job at this paper was, was less than I was making at BOF, like way less than I was making at BOF.

Lauren:

And I was like, I'm already make this.

Lauren:

And it wasn't, that was not interesting.

Lauren:

And then the other job that I was

Lauren:

more interested in.

Troy:

in,

Lauren:

It just was so small compared to what I was doing at BOF.

Lauren:

And now, that's like multiplied times 500.

Lauren:

There's just, I'm interested in being able to do good work.

Lauren:

And I don't really

Lauren:

care

Lauren:

about where it is as long as I like the place that it is.

Lauren:

You know, with, with both of these places that I've spent the last 10 years were things that I really admired and thought these people are doing something that I would want to be a part of.

Lauren:

And that's, I think, so rare in media.

Lauren:

That you feel that way.

Lauren:

I feel like, I'd be, I think what Amanda Amal does at the Atlantic is really great.

Lauren:

I'm a huge fan of hers and if a place like the Atlantic had called me, I probably would have really considered it.

Troy:

they told me, I

Troy:

probably would have been able to distribute there's a very you can be hard on people sometimes.

Troy:

And I don't think you do it maliciously.

Troy:

I just think that you, you like write about the stuff that you see in front of you and you're not afraid to do that.

Troy:

Do you get a lot of, the industry can be full of, of a, like a massive, just like sycophantic vibe.

Troy:

do you get a hard time from, from folks that think that you're, that maybe you got sharp elbows sometimes in, in your puck work?

Troy:

I think

Troy:

anyone, I think they were

Lauren:

generally,

Troy:

But

Lauren:

even at BOF and Fashionista and all these other

Lauren:

places.

Lauren:

I'm much blunter and more straightforward than ever, but I was always like that.

Lauren:

So I

Troy:

at the

Lauren:

people

Lauren:

weren't shocked.

Lauren:

I think they were delighted by my voice coming out, essentially.

Lauren:

But I don't think many people were shocked by it.

Lauren:

There are some that bristle at it, and you know, these luxury brands are really used to, I got a call this morning that I wrote a little thing, one of the big brands is having a men's wear show at the end of women's fashion week, and I wrote a short thing about it, very brief,

Lauren:

because everyone was talking about it at the shows, like, why are they doing this?

Lauren:

And I got a call from them this morning, they were like,

Lauren:

Could you

Troy:

they're like,

Lauren:

take this down?

Troy:

the And I was

Troy:

like,

Troy:

That

Lauren:

Is there some

Troy:

at

Lauren:

But, but

Troy:

deal with

Lauren:

take anything down,

Lauren:

Troy.

Troy:

time.

Lauren:

I've never taken anything down and

Troy:

No, I'm not saying you would.

Troy:

I'm

Troy:

just not surprised.

Troy:

I'm not surprised they asked.

Troy:

I've had people call me, and say, you know, Lauren was really hard on me.

Troy:

And I'm like, Lauren, Lauren just writes what she sees.

Troy:

And I think that you're, being too sensitive.

Lauren:

Now I want to know who said that to you.

Lauren:

I mean, yeah, that's very interesting, I think I can be, but I also think what helps, Oh, I think I know who said that to you.

Lauren:

could guess, but.

Lauren:

I think it does help when the person that I'm writing about is willing to pick up the phone because not everyone is and that makes it harder for, for me and for them.

Lauren:

but I just try to be really straightforward and this is a fun job where I do get to needle people a little bit and I wasn't doing that directly.

Lauren:

Previously, but it's hard.

Lauren:

I, I listened to a couple of your episodes this week and, listened to the, the cancel episode and I do agree that I think a lot of journalists are sociopaths and I'm not one

Troy:

Thank you.

Lauren:

It's hard for me.

Lauren:

I do think that, but I'm not one.

Lauren:

even the person this morning, I wanted to make them feel better.

Lauren:

We worked it out.

Lauren:

I was like, look, I'm never going to take anything down.

Lauren:

There's nothing incorrect.

Lauren:

I'm sorry that you're stressed out because you didn't want anyone to know this and I didn't realize that, but like, it's not going to change and we had the phone call and it was totally fine.

Troy:

my

Lauren:

But yeah, I want people to like me.

Lauren:

I don't want people to feel bad.

Lauren:

I had to go to a Condé Nast thing.

Lauren:

I write about Condé Nast a lot.

Lauren:

Last night, I had to see all these people and talk to them and I write stuff that they don't like and that's what it is.

Lauren:

But, I'm not like out to get any, I had a call with someone, I wonder if this is the person that called you, Troy, last week, who was like, why would you do this to me on, whatever, and I was like, there is literally no, I'm not doing anything to you.

Lauren:

I'm, all I'm doing is, is my job, and, but,

Brian:

from

Brian:

their, they have different perspectives and you got to put yourself in their shoes, but I have, I have a question with adapting to the Puck style.

Brian:

You mentioned Conde Nast and Roger Lynch is clearly, I call it the main character.

Brian:

I feel like Puck has main characters.

Brian:

I've talked

Lauren:

Yeah,

Brian:

about this.

Lauren:

he would, I would call a secondary character in mine, but

Lauren:

if, he, he has

Lauren:

become, he's become more of a main character.

Lauren:

I'd say

Brian:

Okay, so he's like a tootie.

Brian:

He sort of roller skates onto the scene every now and again.

Brian:

but, okay, Bernard but there is main characters.

Brian:

Give me, give me your main characters.

Lauren:

Mine are Bernard Arnaud, Francois Henri Pinot.

Lauren:

I mean, they're my two main guys, trying to think of who else I write about them so much.

Lauren:

Alessandra Michele, all the CEOs of Demna, obviously.

Lauren:

I just write so much that.

Lauren:

It's hard for me.

Lauren:

Anna Wintour is definitely one.

Lauren:

Chanel, the brand, is one.

Lauren:

There's not really a lot.

Lauren:

The executives there don't really have a ton of main character energy, but

Lauren:

Chanel is

Lauren:

one.

Troy:

lot, for me,

Lauren:

I think a lot, for me, it's a lot of brands.

Lauren:

one of the things, when I do my mention in this issue, I don't always just put people, I put brands too, and now, I don't know if anyone had done that before.

Lauren:

Because for me, it's, it's also about the brands, Tori Birch and Pierre Yves Roussel, Sidney Toledano, like a lot of the LVMH and caring executives, and

Troy:

I'd say

Lauren:

media wise.

Troy:

Anna

Lauren:

I'd say Roger and Anna are probably the ones that, I, I just, no offense, Troy, but Condé is way more, more interesting than Hearst.

Lauren:

Hearst

Lauren:

can be kind of boring.

Lauren:

So, it

Lauren:

it has

Troy:

I'm not, I'm

Troy:

not, offended.

Brian:

Lauren, I have one more question on this.

Brian:

How is it adapting your style to the Puck style?

Brian:

Because I think,

Brian:

I

Brian:

often hear from other journalists, I'm just certain.

Lauren:

John a

Brian:

Well, what I wonder about that is because I feel like you have a lot of freedom there that you probably wouldn't have at a lot of other places.

Brian:

And I think different people, and Puck, take it in different directions, but you can, like, I don't want to say, remember when Mike Arrington was trying to make process journalism a thing?

Brian:

But you're like, I'm hearing this thing, I haven't figured out this thing, and I, I think that's a very modern way of, of doing journalism because too often journalism has painted itself into a corner by painting things as black and white when it's at best, it's come on, you're, you're trying to get an approximation of the truth at a certain period of time.

Brian:

It's, it's literally a first draft of history.

Brian:

So first drafts are messy.

Brian:

but yeah.

Brian:

Talk to us about that and, and how you approach, how you write the column, because I think it's different than, than how you used to write, but maybe not.

Lauren:

I mean, it's actually not that different from Fashionista.

Lauren:

So, what has happened Is I've taken

Lauren:

and I that was also 10 over 10 years ago that I worked there, I guess, but, and my voice has gotten a lot stronger and wasn't unused for many years because B.

Lauren:

O.

Lauren:

F.

Lauren:

is so standardized in the way everything is written.

Lauren:

So I had a lot of pent up energy

Lauren:

with that, I think.

Lauren:

I can't remember, but it seemed like I got it in a week.

Lauren:

I, you have to remember, I was reading them, I was reading Matt's in particular, from basically day one, because Teddy One of the other writers worked for Dan.

Lauren:

So we were on Teddy's list and someone had sent me Matt's, I think Matt's even started

Troy:

You're just to be clear for the audience.

Troy:

You're talking Matt Pelloni.

Lauren:

Matt Bellini.

Lauren:

Yes.

Lauren:

yes.

Brian:

Who would pronounce their name that way, Troy?

Troy:

I honestly, made that mistake, by the way, I didn't, I didn't

Troy:

mean to misprint

Brian:

Like, no.

Lauren:

There's a guy who works at LVMH who has the same last name, and his name is Tony, and I always say Tony Bologna.

Lauren:

He's, he's European.

Lauren:

It probably is Tony Bologna.

Lauren:

He's a very nice guy.

Lauren:

But yeah, it was like, so I was reading Matt from, I think someone sent it to me.

Lauren:

even before Puck launched, I think?

Lauren:

I don't remember, but I was on maternity leave and I was reading it, and I was like, this is so good, I kept forwarding it to the BLF people, being like, when I come back, I should do something like this, but in, in a more formal style.

Lauren:

I think that that helped.

Lauren:

I was like, I should work there.

Lauren:

this is the perfect job for me.

Lauren:

I knew immediately and I messaged Teddy, I'd say a year into them doing it being like, if you all ever do fashion or retail, I just want to be in the conversation.

Lauren:

I would be so gutted if I wasn't like interviewed for this job.

Lauren:

I just think I'm the right person for it.

Lauren:

So when I started, and I'd say the hardest part was Previous to, to the launch, John asked me to do a couple, like, why, essentially, like, why should Puck be covering fashion things, and that was hard for me, because I hadn't used my voice in a long time, and also I'm so used to really relying on porting.

Lauren:

But then, I don't know, it just clicked.

Lauren:

I don't remember when

Lauren:

it just came natural to me.

Troy:

Matt has, developed in a really short period.

Troy:

I mean, he had influence before, but I think that the whole Puck thing has been really incredible for his, kind of position in the community.

Troy:

Do you find that after this short period that you have the kind of access and influence that you would have expected?

Troy:

Are you getting good seats at the shows?

Lauren:

Only you would ask that, Troy.

Lauren:

Yes, I mean, the shows that I'm invited to, I'm getting good seats and good access, and getting invited to do previews with the designers, and all of that stuff.

Lauren:

Getting invited backstage, getting introduced to the CEOs if I don't know them, that kind of thing.

Lauren:

I mean, that hasn't

Lauren:

really changed that much.

Troy:

much.

Lauren:

From BOF, I'd say it's a bit better in Europe because at BOF, I was like number four in Europe.

Lauren:

Whereas in America, I was always like number one girl in America.

Lauren:

So, treated very well by

Lauren:

the brands and

Lauren:

everything.

Lauren:

In Europe, the Italians love it.

Lauren:

they're all like, we love Puck, we love Puck.

Lauren:

And they're all very excited and they are into it.

Lauren:

French, half and half.

Lauren:

there are some brands that are really into it and excited about it, and other people who are freaked out by it, for sure.

Lauren:

I mean, I would say

Lauren:

not that many, but it will take

Troy:

will

Lauren:

a

Lauren:

couple more seasons for,

Lauren:

for

Lauren:

all the Paris brands to

Lauren:

come around.

Lauren:

But it's fine.

Lauren:

I've

Lauren:

always had this.

Lauren:

It's never been easy for me.

Alex:

I'm sorry to interrupt.

Alex:

I have a, I had a hard stop at, right now, so I'm going to have to hop off, but it was a pleasure.

Alex:

You guys keep recording this.

Alex:

Very sorry

Alex:

to, to cut it short, man.

Alex:

Thank you.

Alex:

That's

Alex:

okay.

Alex:

Troy, look great.

Brian:

11 final thing just to bring it back to the survival thing.

Brian:

I spoke to a group at Columbia Journalism School about whether they should continue down this path of this profession.

Brian:

What do you tell aspiring journalists?

Brian:

You tell them like going to real estate or do you say?

Brian:

Yeah, there's a path here.

Brian:

And if so, what do you advise them if they want to make a career out of this and they don't have a trust fund?

Lauren:

I do think the, just sticking it out is, I don't know, it's really hard to, I would never discourage someone from going into journalism, but I just don't think most people, what I think about is like, in college, hilariously, my, degree is in writing literature and publishing, which is the fakest degree ever.

Lauren:

But I was in a lot of like nonfiction writing classes and there were all these really ambitious kids.

Lauren:

And I remember thinking, if there, I met this little dinky college in Boston, if there are all these people here who want to be magazine writers or whatever, how am I going to make it?

Lauren:

If, if in this one college, there are all these people.

Lauren:

None of those people did it.

Lauren:

And then when I went to Forbes, I was like, all these people have journalism degrees and they have all this other stuff that I don't have.

Lauren:

And none of them made it or like half of them work in PR or whatever, you know?

Lauren:

I think the answer is just you have to stick it out and, and you have to also, I bring up this woman, Jean Godfrey June a lot, who was the, when I worked at Lucky Magazine,

Lauren:

she was the beauty editor.

Lauren:

she's really resilient.

Lauren:

She's worked at a million different kinds of magazines.

Lauren:

She could have, when I worked there, it was like when Teek Huffpo, and I was

Lauren:

like,

Lauren:

she could have been the editor of Huffpo.

Lauren:

She was great at heads and decks.

Lauren:

She understood the internet and she's, she still works.

Lauren:

She's the beauty director in Goop.

Lauren:

Like she's, she's A survivor and she could have done any of those things and I think the biggest thing is you have to be comfortable with change and be willing to Apply whatever you like doing to that change So i'm not going to start doing tiktok reels or whatever, but I like doing podcasts So you have to accept that things are going to change and try to change with it the best you can, but I don't know.

Lauren:

It's, it's really hard for me.

Troy:

those

Lauren:

been one of those people.

Lauren:

I don't think

Lauren:

about like

Lauren:

the sorry state of media.

Lauren:

again, I've been really lucky, but I did work.

Lauren:

I mean, Forbes.

Lauren:

com was

Lauren:

kind of a crappy place.

Lauren:

I loved it, but it was not, it wasn't like it was.

Lauren:

we had those slideshows with the

Troy:

donut,

Troy:

the

Lauren:

the donut

Lauren:

advertising

Lauren:

created by Mike Smith.

Lauren:

you know,

Troy:

Oh my God,

Lauren:

yeah,

Troy:

over the moon that he got to mention.

Lauren:

love you, Mike.

Lauren:

I

Troy:

Mike Smith.

Lauren:

Hearst?

Troy:

He does.

Brian:

Yeah,

Brian:

he's the father of ad

Lauren:

He's.

Troy:

he wrote the book.

Lauren:

that's interesting.

Lauren:

Mike, call me.

Lauren:

I forgot that he still worked there.

Lauren:

oh my god, there was some guy who worked there who said they invented the slide.

Lauren:

Everyone was trying to say they invented the slideshow when I worked there.

Lauren:

But,

Troy:

talked to today?

Troy:

I

Troy:

took

Troy:

Mike

Lauren:

who did you

Lauren:

talk to?

Brian:

Of course,

Lauren:

I, yes, I know his son Steve Perlis, was an intern at Forbes when I worked there.

Brian:

Forbes at that era pioneered the welcome message where that, that quote Steve Forbes, quote of the day,

Brian:

wisdom of the

Brian:

day.

Brian:

And then like big programmatic banner ad courtesy of

Brian:

Mike.

Troy:

product in it.

Troy:

Yeah, exactly.

Lauren:

But it was kind of like a crazy place to work, but I, I loved it.

Lauren:

I had a great time.

Lauren:

It was super fun.

Lauren:

And, and I mean, I, obviously I met my husband there, but I met a lot of good friends and, now I have the job where I get to have fun all the time.

Lauren:

And it's.

Lauren:

It's awesome and I'm really lucky but every job was a little bit better and I don't know I just never, all I can say is I think you just have to have the like grit and resilience to stick it out and most people don't.

Troy:

I remember, I remember when we had that conversation that day, Lauren, and I was telling you how much I love that you were following the money in your posts and talking about essentially the flow of capital behind the whole fashion machine and media machine and I really like that about how you're kind of deconstructing The industry now and and really trying to kind of appreciate the money side of it because I think it makes the picture more complete It's killer

Troy:

what you're doing

Lauren:

theater critics of business and you weren't allowed to quote analysts.

Lauren:

And it was freeing because you had to talk to them, but like you had to have an opinion about what was going on.

Lauren:

And I think I was lucky that I was there pre 2010 when they still had a sort of way of doing things.

Lauren:

And I think it really benefited me.

Lauren:

And it was also good for what I did next, which was going into blogging where you're not doing

Troy:

where you're

Lauren:

You're just doing

Lauren:

takes.

Lauren:

and Brian, the thing you were saying about the sort of iterative, you talk about what you know and what you don't know, it just feels more honest to me to say it in that way than to act like

Lauren:

I have all the answers.

Lauren:

or

Lauren:

what have you.

Lauren:

yeah, and I think that's obviously the Puck style.

Lauren:

And it's very like a note, a reporter's notebook.

Lauren:

And I like that and it's right for me, but you know, it's not obviously not right for everybody.

Brian:

I think we should leave it there.

Troy:

I loved it.

Troy:

You could stay on if you want for good product.

Troy:

I'm going to do a little good product

Troy:

spiel.

Lauren:

I would like to weigh in on the

Lauren:

good product.

Brian:

Troy, usually he, he, well, good because we need a counterbalance because Troy does the sort of middle aged like rich guy good product.

Brian:

Go on,

Brian:

Troy.

Brian:

Hit that intro.

Lauren:

honestly, my tastes align with that unfortunately.

Lauren:

So I

Lauren:

might like

Lauren:

What

Brian:

What do we have?

Brian:

Or he

Brian:

does things like cherries, or something he sees around his yurt.

Troy:

what an auspicious setup.

Troy:

Thank you, Brian.

Troy:

It's good to be your friend.

Troy:

I'll set it up a little bit.

Troy:

I didn't really want to talk about the kind of male control impulse manifested in high end espresso machines or, audiophile level stereo equipment, although those, those are things that I like.

Troy:

And, and I guess that.

Troy:

You like to optimize or control something.

Troy:

You get into the little details and you can talk about like nerd out on bean roasting and how you weigh them or spritz them with water to make it complete or just the heavy metal of the machine.

Troy:

And it gives you something to talk to your idiot friends about, especially if they don't like sports or something else.

Troy:

But this week's good product is not a.

Troy:

thing, it's song.

Troy:

And, my son was like, Oh my God, you got to listen to this amazing song.

Troy:

so I listened to it yesterday.

Troy:

Then I listened to it 10 more times because I couldn't believe how much I love the song.

Troy:

it's an English dude.

Troy:

His name is baby Dave.

Troy:

I don't think he's, super popular.

Troy:

And the song It's called Dank Mocha.

Troy:

Sorry, Lauren, I don't think I shared it.

Troy:

Maybe I shared it in the

Lauren:

Oh, you did share it.

Lauren:

I just ignored it because I was like, what is this?

Lauren:

And I don't think I need to engage with it.

Troy:

Well, I think you do need to engage with it because, and I need you to play it for Dan if you have a minute when you get home.

Troy:

Dank Mocha.

Troy:

It's, it's so good, like I'm off my rocker on this song.

Troy:

That's actually a line from the song, that's my good product of the week, Brian.

Troy:

I know you don't like it when I do fruit, or I don't really do services.

Troy:

I haven't done a lot of services.

Brian:

I'm sorry, Baby Dave has 106 subscribers?

Brian:

No, this can't be.

Brian:

This can't be right.

Brian:

This must be a different

Troy:

it may not be significant, but the song is, is significant.

Brian:

to say just because he's not popular he's not good.

Troy:

I try not to bring, like just basic kind of cultural items to the good product.

Troy:

corner like that, like a song or a movie, but this week I'm making an exception.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

I've never listened to Dank Mocha, but, I will, after this.

Troy:

hopefully you will too, Lauren.

Lauren:

I'm a little disappointed it wasn't a product though, Troy,

Troy:

I know.

Troy:

I know.

Lauren:

it's okay.

Troy:

I'm wearing this.

Troy:

I don't know if I'm wearing that.

Troy:

They're making fun of me that I look like Han Solo or something.

Troy:

I'm wearing this kind of molted wool vest from Folk.

Troy:

You know that British brand Folk?

Lauren:

Yeah, I do.

Lauren:

They have a really nice store in,

Troy:

London.

Troy:

They

Lauren:

Bloomsbury.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Troy:

so that's kind of a good

Troy:

product for you, Lauren.

Lauren:

the lining of a barber jacket.

Troy:

Yeah.

Troy:

Just one last thing, Lauren.

Troy:

You know what?

Troy:

I texted you.

Troy:

You said you would come on.

Troy:

You're amazing.

Troy:

Thank you for doing that.

Troy:

you didn't have to and it was so cool for you to join us.

Troy:

I appreciate it very much.

Lauren:

Oh, of course.

Lauren:

Both Dan and John say hi.

Brian:

John Kelly.

Troy:

do told John that you were coming on.

Troy:

That's nice.

Lauren:

Yes, of course.

Troy:

you know what?

Troy:

John did the nicest thing and, He said that he liked our podcast on his podcast, and I thought that was really nice.

Brian:

awesome.

Brian:

Lauren.

Brian:

Thank

Troy:

Thank

Troy:

you

Lauren:

Thanks, guys.

Troy:

Bye.

Lauren:

I

Lauren:

hope I get to meet you in person soon.

Lauren:

Bye, Troy.

Lauren:

Thank you, guys.

Brian:

Bye,

Brian:

thank you all for listening, and if you like this podcast, I hope you do.

Brian:

Please leave us a rating and review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Brian:

That takes ratings and reviews.

Brian:

Always like to get those.

Brian:

and if you have feedback, do send me a note.

Brian:

My email is bmaracy at therebooting.com.

Brian:

Be back next week.

Brian:

that was a good conversation.

Brian:

It was a little, in the weeds of the, journalism

Troy:

No, really good.

Troy:

Really good.

Troy:

And I feel like Alex came out trying to sure that he had something substantive to, ask.

Troy:

And I appreciated that, that he did his homework and got pissed at me about it.

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About the Podcast

People vs Algorithms
A podcast for curious media minds.
Uncovering patterns of change in media, culture, and technology, each week media veterans Brian Morrissey, Alex Schleifer and Troy Young break down stuff that matters.
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